Jen Casey (JC): Gwen, I love everything you’re doing! Before this interview, I hardcore stalked some of your content. I just think this is such an important piece, especially as the online space is evolving. At least with the women that I work with and have talked to, I don’t think this is something they really tapped into yet…getting paid to be an influencer!

I’m really freaking excited for them to learn more from you. I would love to pre-frame what we’re going to talk about because I want people to understand how juicy this is about to be. So what is the earning potential of working with brands and what does that look like? I want them to understand why they need to listen to this right now.

Gwen Lane (GL): Sure! As you guys know, brand are moving from traditional TV, radio, and print into digital marketing right now. You’re seeing ads on Facebook. You’re seeing ads on Instagram. You’re seeing ads everywhere because we watch everything on demand now.

Brands are realizing that people are following people and these are the influencers. I always talk about it in terms of celebrity or athlete endorsements. They’re always wearing the same brands or wearing the same watch or driving the same car. Those are all forms of early influencer marketing, even though we didn’t call it influencer marketing before. Athletes and celebrities are like the original influencers. Then there were people who came out and started creating content on YouTube, Instagram, and on their blogs. Mommy bloggers are now influencers, too. They built up this audience and some surpassed the athletes and celebrities. People love them because they are relatable. You even trust them more than you would a friend or coworker because you see them on their feed every single day. You see them trying the products and talking about the brands and how it’s helped them in their lives, and it becomes some sort of word-of-mouth referral. It’s a much more relatable type of advertising.

SO many business owners take advantage of this by working with brands. They’re already building an audience for their business, so it’s an additional revenue stream if you’re already a business owner.

JC: I love this. What is the earning potential of a single post? When you’re Kim Kardashian, you can make millions of dollars per a single post on Instagram!

GL: Yeah! The benchmark rate is around 100 dollars for 10k followers. For example, if you have 10,000 followers right now and you work with a brand, you can get paid 100 dollar per post. Let’s say you really love the brand and you’re like, “Hey! I would promote your product exclusively for a year and I’ll post every single month.” That’s 1,200 dollars right there and that’s just one brand. Think about the clothes you already wear, the hair products you use, your beauty products, things like that. The possibilities are endless. If you get to 100,000 followers, you can get paid up to a thousand dollars a post, and that’s not including your other channels.

You are a channel and your own network, and you can monetize that. You just have to be strategic about it.

JC: You’re always leaving money on the table, right? We’re all sitting on gold, we’re just not aware of all of the potential that’s there because we haven’t been made aware of it yet. We’re going to dive more into this in a little bit, but first, I want you to share a little bit about how you got into this and your journey into becoming somebody who is an expert in this and teaches this?

GL: So I started in the digital marketing world and entertainment industry. I am located in L.A. and my brand is the L.A. girl. I was working in entertainment and e-commerce and I was like, “You know what? I want to start my own brand writing outlet.” I’ve always been a writer. I’ve been an entrepreneur since I was in grade school selling random things online and on eBay. I’ve seen people have their own blogs, so I was like, “What do I know about!?”

I grew up in L.A. and have been here ever since I was little. I know all the cool spots that no one knows about. It started as an event and travel blog, and then my Instagram following started growing and growing, and that’s when brands started reaching out to me. My first brand was like, “Hey, will you post something for twenty dollars and we’ll give you product?” And of course I’m like, “Yes!” I was starting to get invites to restaurants because if I post a photo and tell people about it, my followers would be like, “Oh, what’s this new restaurant? Let’s try it out.” I’m not sure about you, but I discover new restaurants on Instagram all the time. It’s all geotagged now and so easy!

It took about six months or so for me to start monetizing. It wasn’t until a year in that I started getting these bigger deals and I was starting to make more than my salary at my job. I had a really nice six figure salary as a marketing director, but I realized I was capping my potential at my salary. I’m a huge traveler and I would get invited on these trips and I couldn’t go because I didn’t have any vacation! I felt like something was telling me it’s time for me to find out and, even though it was scary, take that leap. I knew that I could do so much more and help so many more people if I was not at my job. My boss actually followed me on Instagram and when I came to talk to him, he was like, “Is it time?” Everyone was so supportive of me leaving. That itself was such a great part of the journey. I was seeing how I affected other people in the workplace by following my dreams and going for it.

JC: That’s so beautiful and I love that they were so supportive because that’s obviously not everyone’s case. So freaking awesome. So you were talking a little bit about when you first started and you were getting a lot of free products and slowly things started to become bigger, paid sponsorships. Did you have to negotiate for those or did those just come naturally with the growth of your following?

GL: I mean, in the beginning, free products is going to be insane. It’s so exciting. People love it. You get into this honeymoon period of YESSSS, FREE STUFF! And then you realize you are doing all this work of taking photos and doing photo shoots, and they’re getting this content and advertising for free! Some of these products were like, 10 bucks. I was like, “Wait a minute…this is not adding up!”

I was NEVER going to be able to quit my job and do this if I wasn’t charging. It’s kind of like with coaches and business owners, if you give stuff away for free, how are you going to eat at the end of the month or pay your rent? You can’t pay rent with free makeup, free clothes, and free trips!

It was definitely a mindset shift. You realize that you need to charge what you’re worth. These huge brands that I’m working with have advertising budgets! ABC, CBS, KISS FM, whatever. I’m getting the same viewership, if not more, because I’m actually attaching my name and my brand to their product, so why aren’t they paying? I’ve had some brands that knew how it works and had an offer in mind, and there were times when someone asked me to do it for free and I said, “No, I actually charge this much per post.” Or there were some brands that we’re like, “Oh, we didn’t even know that’s how it works!” It’s not like they didn’t want to pay you, it’s just that they didn’t understand the industry and the fact that this is part of their advertising budget.

I’m just like, “I don’t even know what you are.” I’m not going to put my name behind something and share something with my audience when I’ve never tried it. How do you teach women or other influencers how to determine whether or not it’s a good fit?

GL: I definitely keep my audience in mind and I always ask if this product or brand can help them. It’s an indicator if it helps you and it is something that you’ve used before. I never work with brands unless I’ve tested out the products myself. So whenever they reach out, I always tell them to send it to me first and that’s not a confirmation that we’re going to work together.

I have been sent products that I would take on trips with me so I can take great photos with, sunglasses or something like that, and they have broken on me. I’ve had to go back to them and say, “Sorry, I can’t work with you because it broke after one day of using it and it’s not a high quality product.”

I’m not going to risk the trust that I built with my audience for so many years to recommend a product that is going to break just because they paid me to do that post.

Not all influencers are created equal and really care about their audience. You can tell who’s genuine or not and brands can tell that, too. I believe that I’m in it for the long run and not just for the payment for the post, so I would rather not accept the money and work with brands that have high quality products that I can refer to my audience, rather than losing that trust.

JC: That trust and integrity is EVERYTHING. I’m curious, what makes somebody attractive to a brand? I’ve actually seen some big “influencers” suddenly go from 5,000 Instagram followers to 100,000 in a matter of two months. There are ways that brands check whether or not they’re real or fake followers, so I would love for you to talk a little bit about that. What makes somebody attractive to a brand if they’re trying to figure out how to position themselves?

GL: There are different growth strategies and we could talk about them for days! There’s a strategy for anything, right? For me, it’s all about knowing who you want your audience to be, attracting them, providing value in your content for them specifically, and then engaging with them on a daily basis. Some people think that you just post a photo and then you’re going to go big. That’s not how it works! There is this thing called an algorithm. People need you to connect with them. I feel like there’s a really amazing way to do that with your content, and Jen you do that so well! That’s kind of how you attract a brand; giving them a glimpse of how your connection is with your followers because if you are not putting great content out there that actually provides them with value, then they kind of know that your followers are just following you either for your sexy selfies or something that’s not going to be conducive to their goals.

They want to work with influencers who already have a deep connection with their followers and are already talking about what the brand is. You know, if I never talk about hair on my channel, why would a hair brand want to talk to me? If I never talk about travel or fitness, why would travel and fitness brands want to talk to me? I always tell my students, my influencers who want to work with brands, if you want to work with that brand, you have to already be putting out content.

If you’re just starting out and you want to be a travel influencer, are you putting out travel content? A brand won’t reach out to you if you’re not already posting that content. All of these brands are on social media and they’re looking to engage with their true fans. I even know some brands that won’t work with influencers who have never posted about their brand before.

They’re going to look through your feed and they’re going to stalk you to make sure that you’re stalk-able and stalk-ready. 

JC: So what would that look like? Should it be a recent post that they’ve made right before they reach out to brand? Should it be that they’re kind of building that relationship with the brand for, you know, 90 days?

GL: Yeah, I mean, for people who are just starting out, brands may not want to work with you right away just because they do want to work with someone that has some sort of a following. If you’re still at 100 followers, I’m not saying that’s small, I’m just saying that a brand may want to work with someone that has a higher following because they want to get in front of more people. All of our goals is to get in front of more people.

There is not a set follower number. I have students who started working with brands just for free stuff around under a thousand followers, so you can start getting collabs. For paid stuff, I’ve seen it more in the 5,000 or more followers. I tell my students to look at what they have already. Don’t go buying stuff that you wish you had. Look at what you have already. I love HydroFlask, so I tag them in all of my photos. I actually haven’t pitched to them before so this is a good example of how I would pitch to them. So I’m pre-pitching, right? I’m now putting out content when I go hiking or go on a trip. I have my HydroFlask with me when I take those photos. I’m tagging them, I’m following them, and I’m commenting on their posts so whoever is handling that account already knows who I am. Without asking for anything, I’m already promoting them, I’m already organic, and I’m using my water bottle every day.

When I do pitch them, I usually do it in an email and send my influencer portfolio, which is like a media kit that shows an overview of my channels, the brands I’ve worked with, what I do, and my demographics. It’s kind of like a resume for influencers. I also have a rate card in there with all of my rates and case studies that show how I’ve worked with other brands before. I always tell influencers if you’re just starting out, you want to create that for yourself before you start pitching brands. I’ve been doing this for a while and usually they love to send free products. You know, maybe this quarter they don’t have the budget, but next quarter they do. It’s all about negotiation, but if it’s a good brand that you want to work with, you guys will find a way to work together.

JC: Are there any big mistakes that people make or misconceptions around pitching and getting yourself in front of brands?

GL: Yeah, definitely! Some people think that just because they have a following, the brand is already going to work with them. This is what happens on the brand side, and I know exactly what happens because this was my job for 12 years, so I was actually on the brand side with influencers. For the ones that send me those portfolios, those are the ones I pick because those people are easy to work with! After this whole campaign, I’m going to need to see analytics and I’m going to need to show my boss that our money was well spent and there was an ROI for this project.

Brands already have a budget in mind and they already have an audience that they’re trying to target. For example, some travel company is doing a campaign with female entrepreneurs. What they’re trying to do is look for influencers that fit that mold. Sometimes we get so caught up in getting rejected, but at end of the day it usually has nothing to do with you. The brand either ran out of money or they were looking for certain diversity where they wanted Latina influencers. Sometimes I get mistaken for that and I’m like, “Oh no, I’m not Latina!” They’re like, “Oh ok, we don’t want to work with you.” That’s ok!!! It doesn’t mean anything about you and it doesn’t mean your content sucks.

JC: It’s so funny because I see this a lot, even with podcasts. A friend of mine recently got somebody who has a sizable following and a pretty big name on her show. She was telling a few people about it and they were like, “How did get her to be on your show??” And she was like, “I asked! I asked and she immediately said yes.” I think a lot of times people get in their heads. I’m so glad you brought this up because this really is a big mistake that they’re either not asking, they’re assuming people are going to say no, or if one person doesn’t respond or says no, they think they don’t deserve it and feel like a failure. We create such insane stories based on almost no information. People just don’t make the ask because they just assume that it’s going to be a no.

GL: So true, especially for influencers of a smaller following. Why don’t you just ask? I mean, the worst thing they can do is say no and then what happens? Nothing! I’m always big on the followup. Maybe you worked with them last quarter and they have another project that they’re planning to do. I’ve gotten so many campaigns just by working with someone really well and they told their co-worker, who manages another client.

If you’re easy to work with, they’re likely going to want to work with you again OR recommend you!

JC: So freaking true. What do you think is the difference between an influencer and someone being influential? The word influencer is kind of this key word that’s being thrown around. Even little kids are coming out of elementary schools wanting to be an influencer! But at the end of the day, this is the thing that people are aspiring to be. I don’t even know if I am totally clear on the difference between what qualifies someone as an influencer. Is it the number of followers you have? Is it the income that you’re making? When do we cross that threshold? 

GL: You have no idea how many people use the word influencer because they think it’s a buzz word and trendy and searchable.

My definition of an influencer is anyone who can make an impact on someone else, whether that’s positive or negative, and whether you’re able to influence their decision. I’m not just talking about buying decisions, but their perspective on a thought or idea. In my view, everyone is an influencer. You’re an influencer to your partner. You’re an influencer to your child. You’re an influencer to your parents. 

In terms of digital influencers, it’s someone who has that audience or following online and they’re able to reach them with their content. I don’t have a specific number or a threshold of when you become an influencer. They do have industry benchmarks, like the micro-influencers who are under 50,000 followers and mega-influencers which are a million followers, or whatever. Now there’s this thing that they’re calling nano-influencers, which is less than 10,000 followers. There’s different strategies on this. Let’s say you had a product and you wanted influencers to promote it for you. There are huge influencers there, but their engagement rates are really low and not a lot of people feel connected to them. People just follow them because they’re famous and they want the gossip on what they are doing and who they’re dating, that kind of stuff. Would they actually try out a product that they recommended? 

Versus someone who has, you know, 5 to 10,000 followers, her audience loves to see her because she always provides great content and great tips. You trust her because she’s always on your feed, you think she’s funny, you guys have the same kind of story, and you relate to her on some level. Then she tells you about this awesome thing that saved her thousands of dollars and hours of time, and you’re like, “Wait, what is that? Give me the swipe-up link! Give me the discount code!” I’ve done that and I’ve I bought something because someone that I loved and related to told me about it. Some brands would rather go that direction than pay millions of dollars for Kylie Jenner.

This other person might have built their following differently, not because they were famous, but because they were consistently showing up for their audience. 

JC: That’s really what it’s about. It’s about bringing in that organic marketing and making real connections and having real conversations. Like you said, if by that logic, everyone is an influencer, I think an important question for everyone to ask themselves is, “What are you influencing people to do? What are you influencing people to think?”

You can call yourself an influencer and put it in your Instagram bio, but give yourself an audit because you can influence people in a negative way, too. I feel like there’s not really a light shone on that. It’s framed in a very positive way, typically, if you’re an influencer. Maybe some food for thought!

JC: Definitely! People have to own it. I always get students who are like, “I think I’m an influencer?” I’m like, “Girl, it’s either you are or you aren’t!”

If you are, own it and talk to your audience as if there’s something you have to offer, which we all do. We all have a gift. We all have a story that will inspire someone.

JC: So before we end, I want to know what the first steps are for somebody who is looking to begin that process of bringing in an income stream with brand deals and sponsorships?

GL: Start looking at where you are right now. If you’re just starting and you don’t even have an Instagram account, that’s ok. You can start right now and it’s not too late. I always get this question, like, “Is it too late? Is it too saturated?” I always tell them no, there’s no one like you. You have a unique story and no matter how much people try to copy or you try to copy them, it’s never going to work.

Figure out who you want to talk to and who you want to attract. Who are these people? Usually it’s some sort of a reflection of yourself because we’re always attracting what we are.

I attract women in the age of 20 to 40 ish and most of them for my L.A. girl brand are in L.A. For Spark Society, my influencer brand, they are usually travel or lifestyle influencers and some even do fitness. All the things that I love… those are the people that I attract. Think about what you love to talk about, what you’re excited about, and what you want to share value on. I just talked to someone who did fashion. I even had someone in my group yesterday who does fitness, but for people who love to drink whiskey! That’s awesome!! Why not? If that’s exciting to you, do that. Figure out what those things are  then start talking about it and start posting. Don’t wait until things are perfect. You don’t need a professional photographer. You can do everything you need on your phone nowadays. Just talk authentically about you and what you love and start helping people.

Once you do that, the right people will be attracted to your content. Now, there are strategies like having an aesthetic and using hashtags, but that comes later. First get clear on what you want to do and then start doing it and adjust and tweak as you go. You will learn what your followers like and what they don’t like, and what you like and don’t like. It’s a learning process. People always ask, “What do you do if your interests change or you’re not into it anymore?” I’m like, “That’s why it’s great! Your audiences actually evolves with you!” You’re all single, then you’re all married, and then you’re all having kids, stuff like that. I used to travel very budget, and now that I’m making some money, I can splurge a little more.

It’s the same with my audience. They’re also growing with me. It’s fun to share your journey with other people if it’s going to inspire them to go after what they want as well.