Jen Casey (JC): For those who are meeting you for the first time, I would love for you to fill us on how you made the transition from the corporate world  to the online business world.

Jereshia Hawk (JH): This online business world was like an underground economy that I didn’t know existed. Back in college, I had started my very first business. I ran out of financial aid and started an online clothing boutique. That was my first time making money selling a product to a complete stranger on the other side of the world. When I got into corporate America, I was an engineer by trade. I started working for utility and I worked in the natural gas space as a pipeline engineer. At the very beginning of my career, I got put into the leadership track at my organization and in a very quick time frame, I got promoted to a high visibility program. It was a 400 million dollar pipeline project and the largest financial program in the entire company, which was awesome, but I was constantly one of the youngest in the room. I was constantly the only female or female of color in the room. I was exposed to so many opportunities and I was starting to reflect on why I was getting access to these opportunities. What are the unique barriers that other people who look like me are experiencing that’s preventing them from getting access to these opportunities? We’ve talked about this idea before of understanding your worth and understanding your value. I think a lot of people struggle with knowing how to communicate their value of what they bring to the table and knowing how to sell the skills they have and articulate it in a way where whoever is receiving it on the other end understands it. A lot of my peers were asking, “How are you doing this? How are you getting the mentors you have? How are you getting access?” That’s when I started doing Facebook lives sharing what was working for me, how I was positioning myself in this Fortune 500 company, and how I was having conversations to get mentors and sponsors to speak and advocate for me on my behalf. It kind of slowly snowballed into what I have today now where I’m teaching other people how to take the skills they already have and package it into a service they can sell.

JC: Were you always really into sales?

JH: I never thought I was. I just knew how to hustle. I knew how to make something happen. I don’t think I really connected the dots that say ‘you’re really good at sales.’ I kind of credit it to your ability to be buoyant. When life knocks you down, how quickly are you willing to get back up and how quickly are you willing to do what’s required to get you to where it is you want to go? I don’t think I realized that I was helping people do high ticket sales until probably six months ago. I thought, “I’m really good at messaging. I’m good at positioning. I’m good at helping people comb through the data to figure out what thing they should focus on and what’s actually generating profit margins. I’m really good at helping people figure out where their prime opportunity is to be able to 3x their revenue, but I’m also really good at teaching them how to sell it.” I was always focused on more of the service that I was delivering more than the result that I was able to help achieve. That didn’t click for me until a couple of months ago.

JC: Wow. I think that’s such an important thing to let people hear because oftentimes they come into the online world and they’re like, “I have to have my niche, I have to have my messaging, and I have to have my process figured out tomorrow.” It really does evolve and sometimes it’s right under our noses and we don’t realize it until many, many months in and after working with many clients. We’re like, “OH, that’s what I do really well!”

JH: I think because what’s simple to us is someone else’s struggle, and because it’s so simple to us, you can be kind of blind to it and you can’t see your own genius sometimes.

JC: It’s a bias that we have! We assume everyone’s good at what we’re good at. No, that’s your special sauce! I’m curious, what was it like walking away from corporate? A lot of the listeners are in a place where they are feeling dissatisfied with what they’re doing in their network working company or they’re working a 9 to 5 or they have part time job or they’re a business coach and they want to be a life coach. They’re just trying to figure out their journey.

JH: I loved my career. I love the work that I did. I had the flexibility and I had the pay that I desired. There wasn’t really much more I was craving. But for me, I knew that there’s more value I needed to be bringing to the world outside of what’s defined in my job description. It was really not about taking a leap or jumping off the cliff. I’ve always viewed it as just building a bridge. I wanted to be able to build a bridge so that I can stand at the tip and look at both pathways and have an opportunity to make a choice and a decision not based off of fear or how much money is in my bank account, but based off how I desire to experience life every day. I really started looking at myself as, “I am a business. Jereshia Hawk, you are the business and you are the entity.” Your 9-5 just may be your biggest client. I started shifting my perspective. Do I want to keep this 9-5 as my largest client or do I want to diversify my portfolio of clients? I wanted to feel like I had freedom of choice. I remember when I started getting into this online space and maybe about 10 months in, I had made 6,000 dollars and I had spent more than 6,000 dollars. I’m like, “Jay, if this is a hobby, I need you to commit to saying this is a hobby and we need to start cutting out some of these expenses, or are you actually going to treat this like a legitimate business?” I made a very conscious decision to go all in. I’m going to treat this like a legit business. I’m going to give myself three years before I say that it didn’t work. Just like when I made a decision that I wanted to become an engineer, I didn’t just go out to some random field trying to make up whatever it was, I went to school and I invested in education. I followed somebody else’s framework. I treated my business the same way. Who can I learn from who has already built out the path where I can start where they left off versus starting at ground zero? When I started making those strategic investments, that’s when I started to see traction in my business. I understood business and I understood how to deliver a service, but I didn’t really understand the full scope of what was required to sell it in the online space.

JC: I love this perspective so much. When you get started, it’s almost like going to college again, but starting over. I think people get impatient. “I went school. I did my thing. Now I should be where I want to be.” Well, you completely pivoted and changed directions and you’re entering a whole other world, so it really does require that permission to be a beginner again and to start over in a lot of ways.

JH: The way the system and society has us set up is that you go to school, you get a good degree, and you’ll get a job. The reality is, that’s not the reality. Most people are not in a position where they’re earning enough money to pay off their student loans every month or even able to fully use the degree they have. We so blindly will go to college and spend four or five years and tens and thousands of dollars to get education. Why do we second guess and doubt that when it comes to our business? Delivering a service as an employee and running a business as an owner are two very different skill sets. In the beginning of building a business, you’re wearing all the hats. You’re wearing the hat of delivering the service and you’re wearing the hat of selling the service and you have to learn that. As entrepreneurs, we have to learn how to make that CEO code switch, of how to go from being an employee to fully stepping in a true CEO leadership role.

JC: Yes and like you were saying, you had to create the bridge from being in corporate as an employee to having your own business. When I first stepped into the coaching world, I didn’t really understand the full scope of what it would require to run a business. In the last year and a half I’ve been building a team and bridging that next piece. I’m not going to be wearing all the hats. I’m not creating the graphics, setting up the Facebook ads, creating the strategy, and booking the podcasts. You’re probably not realizing how much stuff you actually do every day. I think you can start bridging that gap right now by hiring a VA so you can start getting those things off your plate to get your time back.

JH: So much of my corporate job set me up to be successful as a business owner. When I said I was going to get serious about building this business, I’m asked myself, “What can I do to put myself in the room where these strategic conversations are happening in my organization before I leave?” If I can learn how a billion dollar business runs and operates from a strategic and operational perspective, I can apply that same thing to my small business even though we don’t have nearly as many zeros in the bank account yet. Wherever you are right now, take advantage. Don’t just walk into your job or walk into your network marketing or whatever role that you’re in as just a consumer. Start to ask why they are making the decisions the way that they’re making them. Start to think about the logic and the thought process and the strategy behind why the infrastructure and the business is running the way that it is so that you can learn start to learn that skill set before you leave.

JC: That’s a really brilliant insight. I was just talking to a bunch of my students the other day and they’re like, “I hate it. It sucks. I hate my job,” and what you’re saying is, hey, you have an opportunity before you get to the place where you leave to actually study this. Even in the restaurant business, in hindsight I looked back and realized the restaurant didn’t function because they had us doing 15 different things each, so we were all running around like crazy. At a restaurant my friends worked at, they all focused on three core tasks, one of them being customer service. It was The Cheesecake Factory and they had a dialed-in system and we were T.G.I. Fridays flopping around and couldn’t figure out what the hell was going on! It’s so interesting when you look at it through that business lens. If you guys can start to filter the world and filter your experience, there’s a lot to learn and a lot of content to be made from that.

JH: Yeah, totally! That was how I mentally started shifting. I realized I was trying to go down the traditional sales funnel route: create a seven dollar e-book, create a 97 dollar digital course, and create all these things before I ever introduce anybody to my high ticket offer. I was trying to grow an email list and trying to run ads when I had no idea what the heck I was doing. I was trying to mimic what I saw the millionaires doing and it bit me in the butt. We look at the people we admire and we try to mimic their business model as it looks today without fully understanding all the things that were required for them to get there. We’re trying to mimic somebody on step 15 when we’re at ground zero. Instead of trying to build this wide funnel and grab a ton of people and slowly trickle them down to this small group of people buying one big thing, I decide to flip the funnel and focus on a minimum viable audience I can focus on and a high ticket offer I can sell out of the gate. If I can get four clients at 2,500 dollars, that’s 10,000 month. There was so much tech that was involved and you look at people who are at the level that we look up to and you don’t realize that they have four developers on their team, they have seven team members, or they are spending x amount of money in capital every month. I didn’t have the capacity from a financial, energetic standpoint to be able to do that in my business at the time. It was coming to terms with the fact that I had to identify a business model that met me where I was at this season of my business to get to the next level versus trying to mimic somebody else’s season four when I didn’t even know the basics yet.

JC: I’m so glad you’re saying! This is another thing that I hear from a lot of my clients. They’re like, “I really want to have a business like so and so,” and I’m like, “Wel,l they have 35 courses. You’re not going to build 35 courses out the gate. That’s great that you want to be like Tony Robbins, but he’s 65… that took him some time.” One brick at a time. If you’re trying to jump to level 300 when your business is in infancy, you’re not setting yourself up for success. As you started your transition, you figured out that you’re a ninja at sales and from there you started to develop your own method and process. I love the way that you frame this so I would love for you to share it.

JH: I started focusing on a minimum viable audience and it took many iterations. I thought I needed to know exactly who my ideal audience was and have the perfect service before I started selling. I’m like, “You are killing yourself and your business is going to go broke if you keep waiting for things to be perfect before you start selling.” When I first started, I wanted to help women become more empowered and I thought I was niching down by saying, “I want to help millennial women become more empowered.” It’s like, what does that actually mean? And then I kept refining it to, “I want to help people who work a 9-5 build a business on the side,” and then I got even more clear by saying, “I want to help people take the skills they already have and package a high ticket offer and sell that consistently using live video.” That took about a year and half of of iterations. I call it the Pop Method and it’s the thing that has been really successful for our clients of being able to go from making no money or making 2-3,000 dollars a month inconsistently, to making 5,000, 10,000, and 30,000 a month in a very short timeframe. You start by picking one problem. We get so focused on “I want to be a life coach. I want to be a business coach. I want to be a health coach.” Those are titles, but what problem are you actually solving within that service? Really taking the time to get clear on that first and then once you know the problem it is that you’re solving, pick one person. I’m not a fan of the broad, arbitrary, target market avatars. It’s really hard for me to connect with that because when I start marketing, who am I actually talking to? In the online space, we forget that there’s a real human being on the other end of the computer who’s making a decision on whether or not they’re putting their credit card information in. So when I say pick one person, who is a real human being that you know or that you’ve worked with who needs a problem that you want to solve? Then make your target market, profile, and your avatar off of who that one person actually is. Imagine if you were to walk into a room… how would you be able to identify who your ideal client is without speaking? You should know your Pop person at that level of intimacy. My people are school supply junkies, so when they go to a conference they bring their own notebook. They typically have two to three pens, at minimum, sitting on their desk next to their pen. The real overachievers already have post-it notes, highlighters, different colored pens, and a pencil pouch. Most of my people are wine drinkers. If there is wine available, they will have a red glass of wine in hand. If music turns on, either they will be on the dance floor or they’ll be in their chair movin’ and groovin’. They are statement piece wearers, so they’ll either have a bold lip, a bold purse, or bold shoes. When you think about your your ideal client, I don’t want you just to think about, “I help women who are 20 to 40 who want to lose weight.” I want you to get really specific in the sense of, “I’m helping a mom who just gave birth lose 15 pounds.” Have that level of specificity when it comes to the person you’re trying to support and the problem your solving. The last part of that is package one process. If every single time you work with a client you’re having to customize the delivery of that service, it’ll be very difficult for you to scale it down the line. In the beginning, you have to learn your service, so it’ll take probably three to six clients for you to get an idea of what the methodology is that you’re taking a client through. The long-term goal for you should not be to be selling yourself as the personality. People are paying for the process, the methodology, and the framework that you deliver. When you talk about creating a business that is sustainable, manageable, and scalable, you have to have a framework. That’s the root of the Pop Method when it comes to packaging your high-ticket offer.
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JC: I mentioned before that I didn’t realize we teach such similar things and approach it in the same way. It gets me so excited because this does work! Simplify, people! I really love what you’re saying around having a clear process. I was listening to your podcast (which you guys should totally go subscribe to!) and you were saying that when you’re looking to work with a coach, if they don’t have a proven process and duplicatable results, it’s not necessarily a sign to run, but it’s a little bit of a red flag.  

JH: I’ve definitely hired consultants or coaches who did not have a proven process or proven methodology and was still able to get value out of it, but understand what you’re going into. If they’re getting consistent results and they don’t have a framework that’s visible, l’d maybe be okay with taking that chance. If they’re somebody who hasn’t gotten themselves results or you don’t see any results they’ve given anybody else, well… you just want to make sure that you’re making a wise decision and a wise investment. If you’re feeling like, “Well, how am I going to sell my service if I don’t have my process or my methodology,” just know that because people are paying higher ticket, there will probably be more manual or active work that will be required of you. If you don’t have a methodology or a framework, maybe you’re meeting with people on a call bi-weekly or weekly and you’re having these check ins or there’s more back and forth that you’re willing to do. In the beginning, that was me. I met with my clients weekly. There were live calls and I would send them assignments after our calls. It was way more hands on. I’d be really worried about investing in somebody who is not high touchpoint and they don’t have a methodology or framework. What the heck am I following? If you’re not there to guide me, then I don’t know what’s about to take place.

JC: That’s something I’ve been hearing a lot of people talk about in the industry as well. Some balls are being dropped with some high ticket offers and I think that’s really what it comes down to. It’s a lack of clarity in, “What are we learning together? What is our end result and the transformation we’re going to create?” When you have that method, man… it just clarifies the heck out of everything. So you used to do a lot of high ticket one-on-ones and now you’ve transitioned your business and the business model has evolved a bit. How did you start to shift into what you’re doing now?

JH: I started doing high ticket one-on-ones and that was the place where I was able to figure out what my methodology and framework was. It gave me flexibility to kind of move things around while I was in the discovery phase. Once I was getting clients and seeing consistency in the results they were getting, I was like, “I think we actually have something here.” Then I went to group coaching and masterminding. We went to a group container type of environment where I was still taking that same methodology, I know how to do it one-on-one, but can I put it in a way where I can teach it one to many where I’m not as hands-on with filling in the gaps? I’ve done it in a five figure offer and I’ve also done it in a four figure container, so some had in-person retreats and some did not it and it was all virtual. Then I started testing. What’s the best way for me to deliver this offer? Is it better in a multiple five figure container with a small audience or in a multiple four figure container, but I’m not as hands on? It’s really about being in a mindset of continuous improvement. Not perfection. It’s focusing on progress over perfection. You think that it needs to go step one, two, three, four, and when you start teaching it to somebody else to get the result for themselves, you realize it actually needs to go to two, three, one, four for them to get it in a way that they understand. I did group programs for a short stint and once I felt confident about the methodology, that’s when I packaged that same signature service that we’ve been using this entire time from one-on-one, to group, and to a signature course. That’s what Services That Sell is now. We’ve had over 150 students go through it. The framework is solid. We’re still making improvements to make it prettier and we’re trying to gamify the experience a bit more. The cool thing about having your signature service and working off of one methodology is that it’s an offer that can evolve. You can evolve in how you deliver it throughout the course of your business, but the theme of that thing and the core of that thing has not changed in the last year and a half. We just changed how we deliver it and how we support our clients through the process of it.

JC: That’s so beautiful and I think that’s a great way to approach what you’re teaching. I’ve been teaching the same core stuff since 2016 and every single time I’ve relaunched, things have tweaked and I’ve noticed little nuance things. I don’t see that many people in the online space doing that because people have frickin’ squirrel brain! You’re a beautiful testament to just sticking with what you are good at! Stop spreading yourself thin because that’s really when you can position yourself as that authority and expert in your industry.  

JH: Think about the people you most admire. For me, Kevin Hart is who comes to mind. I love that little man. He’s hilarious. You think about Kevin Hart, Tony Robbins, Michael Jordan, and Beyonce… they were not squirrels in the early years of their careers. Look at Kevin Hart. He is known for being a comedian. He was a comedian for decades before he started becoming an actor, before he created a shoe line, and before he started making mixed tapes with Trey Songz. Beyonce was a singer for decades before she came out with her clothing line, Ivy Park. You have to figure out what it is that’s going to be the trunk of your tree. Too many people start to build branches and those branches are weaker, smaller, limbs and they wonder why they keep breaking. It’s not attached to anything solid. In the digital world, there is way more  impatience because so much is readily available to us. Sometimes I think we forget that just because we have a great idea, it doesn’t mean it’s a great business opportunity and if it is a great business opportunity, the reality is that there’s things required to build that business to be something that’s going to be manageable, sustainable, and scalable long term. Two years or three years in business… you’re still an infant! You are a toddler learning to speak coherent sentences so other people understand what it is that you’re saying. Give yourself some grace during the season.

JC: Yes! When I went to Tony Robbins’ Business Mastery back in August, I was hanging out with people who had multimillion dollar businesses. I’m just chatting with this guy and he’s like, “This year we’re going be expanding into India. We did 40 million dollars last year, but I think next year we’re going to hit 100 million because we might be expanding into China.” I’m just standing there like, “Mhmm, mhm, yeees,” as if I know what the hell is going on!  It was a crazy moment of a perspective of. There’s so many next levels to the next level to the next level and it was cool to see his certainty and confidence in having that conversation.

JH: The thing that I’m loving about what you’re saying is that regardless of where you are, just focus on what’s required for you to graduate to the next. It makes me think of Super Mario. We try to skip too many levels to go fight Bowser when we are not prepared. Focus on what’s required for you to evolve to the next level and that should be the thing that you are defining your success off. of not. Don’t be mad by the results you didn’t get from the work you didn’t do. You’re not there yet and that’s okay.

JC: I say to people, “If I were to give you a hundred new clients tomorrow, what would you do? Would you have the infrastructure? Would you be able to handle it? Would you be able to deliver?” They’re like, “Well, that probably wouldn’t happen.” …But you’re saying you want that to happen and you’re not preparing for the expansion. Right now, your business is atrophy. You need to grow and go through these hard times. You need to slowly build up. You can’t just jump to running a million dollar business if you’ve never made a thousand dollars before.

JH: It’s like the Oprah effect. When Oprah was back on TV and she used to do her top favorite things of Christmas, so many businesses went out of business because they were listed on Oprah’s list and their sales skyrocketed. They could not handle the demand. They couldn’t supply the demand. Others have thrived off of it. UGG shoes blew up because of Oprah. Spanx (I love Sara Blakely!) was also an Oprah effect. So many of us are craving for that Oprah effect to happen. This is why I love what you teach when it comes to NLP and mindset. Who do you need to be and who do you need to become? You have to become that person before the physical stuff comes.